Curse

Moloch Vein · Nov 18, 2007, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

My other characters manage just fine with that 6 energy boost!

"Your other characters" don't have zero benefit from their primary attribute apart from energy gain.

upier · Nov 18, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

"Your other characters" don't have zero benefit from their primary attribute apart from energy gain.

No, they just cast spells faster.
And their spirits last that millisecond longer.

Casting spells faster VS almost never have to worry about e-management?
In PvE?
Khmmmm ....

But if you so seriously dislike SR - you can put your points into blood and take OoB.
Of course you use a skill slot.
And of course you use the elite slot.
But dude!
Just imagine the insane energy you'll be getting with it compared to SR!
The idea itself warped my fragile little mind!

greenthumb · Nov 18, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I'm going to throw idea out there that was brought up in the big SR thread after the first round of nerfs.

The biggest problem with an untimered SR is the unbounded nature of the energy gains. Take your typical pve fight: 15ish seconds with 6ish bad guys dead, giving you 12 hits of SR after minions. With 10 SR, your average PvE necromancer would have 24 pips of energy - enough to cast Heal party and an echoed SS on recharge while never swapping out their dual 15/-1 sets.

That problem was debunked in that big SR thread also, and I imagine that's why ANet revised their timer design to their more generous current design. That argument of "unbounded" energy return is a non-existent game balance issue because if things are dying that fast, it's not only the necromancer primary that is having an easy time. Most likely the entire party is not being taxed or stressed in the least bit and steamrolling over the critters. It's a red herring or a non-issue. That's probably the reason why no one gave a ---- ---- for 2 years.

I think ANet did a good job in handling the issue (although it did take them awhile), and I'm fine with the end result, the current design. It's ironic that ANet eliminated the energy gain from spirits, but at least it shows they don't have too much pride to not do it.

Chthon · Nov 18, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

Any insult to an individual or the community as a whole will be deleted. Please keep your posts on topic and contributing.

To repeat what was deleted: A particular individual (about whom I cannot express my opinion without it being deleted) asserts that removing the timer would give bloodspike overwhelming infinite energy returns from SR. This is silly. In fact, removing the timer would make NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL, unless the bloodspike team is able to force 4 or more kills in 15 seconds. How often do you see that from bloodspike, or any other build?

Outside of infinite-death-manufacturing gimmicks, the timer is rarely if ever hit in PvP. And now that the last of those gimmicks has been nerfed, there's no PvP need for the timer at all.

I've discussed elsewhere why there's no PvE need for it either.

To reiterate: Not needed anywhere. Widely hated. Get rid of it.

Burst Cancel · Nov 18, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

The argument re balance = dead (see: Ursanway/TNTF/SY) can be taken to mean that Ursanway/TNTF/SY are also too strong and should be nerfed.

If SR timer is removed, it should be rebalanced, and Signet of Lost Souls should be looked at. Even with the timer, SR is a very strong source of energy in PvE (see: N/Rt 'Sabway').

greenthumb · Nov 18, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Outside of infinite-death-manufacturing gimmicks, the timer is rarely if ever hit in PvP. And now that the last of those gimmicks has been nerfed, there's no PvP need for the timer at all.

I've discussed elsewhere why there's no PvE need for it either.

To reiterate: Not needed anywhere. Widely hated. Get rid of it.

So maybe the timer approach, even the current multiple-trigger design, may not be needed. Aside from an argument that it's not needed, how significant are the issues with the current design? Is the reward structure inappropriate or inadequate, especially given how the timer refreshes based on the first of three triggers? So when is it an issue, and how significant an issue is it?

prism2525 · Nov 18, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Couldn't be bothered with reading the whole thread and I'm not the biggest fan of Necromancers, but what i read in the OP it makes sense. I knew about the spirit spam problem with SR but now the last thing that justified the timer is gone, meaning the timer is no longer justifiable.

perhaps this is only a test weekend, but I can tell that this is one update that would please the community so why on earth would they revert to the 1/2 energy gain from spirit. Although it wouldn't make any sense I can't rule anything out since it's Anet we're talking about

cthulhu reborn · Nov 18, 2007, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

The argument re balance = dead (see: Ursanway/TNTF/SY) can be taken to mean that Ursanway/TNTF/SY are also too strong and should be nerfed.

If SR timer is removed, it should be rebalanced, and Signet of Lost Souls should be looked at. Even with the timer, SR is a very strong source of energy in PvE (see: N/Rt 'Sabway').

TNTF actually DID get nerfed. To reiterate, the energy gain is plenty but the mechanic sucks. I do not get a result whenever I trigger it but only a few times every 15 seconds. It's the only attribute that has it. It's lame.
In this case to Anet the end justified the means.

A car that has scratches all over it and coffee stains all over the interior still drives fine enough...I'm just not buying it. I'll buy another one. For the same token the necro is still functional but I stopped playing em and only play my remaining characters. To me a character is more than the average from a mathematical calculation.

Chicken Ftw · Nov 18, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

It's the only attribute that has such a limitation because it's the only attribute broken enough to need one.

Anyway, I'd only be fine with removing the timer if SR was reworked. As it is, removing it'd just make playing an already easy class even easier.

cthulhu reborn · Nov 18, 2007, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

It's the only attribute that has such a limitation because it's the only attribute broken enough to need one.

Anyway, I'd only be fine with removing the timer if SR was reworked. As it is, removing it'd just make playing an already easy class even easier.

That is nonesense. It didn't need to be rigged in such a stupid way. They could've come up with a better solution but didn't. There are plenty of other options out there but they were not used (untill now perhaps since the new nerf was one of the things proposed). It needed to be changed, mostly for PvP purposes, but it never needed this mechanic.

cellardweller · Nov 19, 2007, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

That problem was debunked in that big SR thread also, and I imagine that's why ANet revised their timer design to their more generous current design. That argument of "unbounded" energy return is a non-existent game balance issue because if things are dying that fast, it's not only the necromancer primary that is having an easy time. Most likely the entire party is not being taxed or stressed in the least bit and steamrolling over the critters. It's a red herring or a non-issue.

Nonsense. Things die at that rate in normal "endgame" content - and it is under those conditions that a necromancer should be balanced. If you try to make a necromancer easy to play under the hardest elite content then you remove all energy management from them for the entire game and you end up with the one dimensional gameplay that plagued the Necro prior to the original nerf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

That's probably the reason why no one gave a ---- ---- for 2 years.

Quite the contrary. People like me used their necromancers as mules under the original SR because with unlimited energy wasn't interesting to play. The class is infinitely more fun now and as a result, my girl has finished 3 of the campaigns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

I think ANet did a good job in handling the issue (although it did take them awhile), and I'm fine with the end result, the current design.

I am also fine with the 3 second timer, its bounded nature allows you to dial down SR and have it actually effect the amount of energy you gain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

It's ironic that ANet eliminated the energy gain from spirits, but at least it shows they don't have too much pride to not do it.

The original nerf was aimed at PvP and PvE - Spirits were mainly a PvP problem and had a very minimal effect on PvE, the two changes were never mutually exclusive.

Chthon · Nov 19, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

The argument re balance = dead (see: Ursanway/TNTF/SY) can be taken to mean that Ursanway/TNTF/SY are also too strong and should be nerfed.

It can, and some people have argued exactly that. You can say, "the rest of PvE is overpowered, so SR should be free of this dumb nerf." Or you can say "SR gets a dumb nerf, so the rest of PvE should too." Both are internally consistent at least. The position that's inconsistent and hypocritical is, "SR should keep this dumb nerf, but don't touch my Ursanway." Consciously or not, a-net has put themselves into that third, inconsistent, hypocritical position, so that's where my criticism is directed.

As between having overpowered PvE stuff and having "balanced" PvE stuff: (1) I think playing around with the overpowered stuff every now and then is fun. (2) Even when I don't use the overpowered stuff, I have absolutely zero problem with them being available fro other people to use. (3) I strongly suspect that a-net has "made up its mind" that PvE "balance" is not worth pursuing. In arguing for the reversal of the timer nerf, I'm arguing primarily against a-net's laziness; in arguing against Ursanway/TNTF/SY, one would be arguing against a recent and deliberate decision.

(I might add that it's downright dishonest to insist that SR remain nerfed for the sake of PvE "balance" and pretend that PvE "balance" is some sort of unshakable first principle when, in fact, a-net either never really embraced it or has since totally rejected it. I really have a problem with people doing that.)

Quote:

If SR timer is removed, it should be rebalanced, and Signet of Lost Souls should be looked at.

Not really. If the timer were removed, SoLS would simply drop out of PvE play and remain pretty much absent like it was before the nerf forced us all to carry it. SoLS would see the same play in PvP that it does now, since removing the timer would have basically effect on PvP in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

So maybe the timer approach, even the current multiple-trigger design, may not be needed. Aside from an argument that it's not needed, how significant are the issues with the current design?

A lot of this was addressed over and over again a few months ago. Briefly:
(1) It's ugly. Just really, really ugly.
(2) It's random and unreliable. You can never count on whether or not you're going to get energy. You can never plan ahead like you used to. You can't do much to control whether or not you get energy.
(3) It punishes better play. The better you play, the faster you kill things, the less energy you get back for doing it. The incentive structure is exactly the reverse of what it should be.
(4) Despite what we tell ourselves to make ourselves feel better, the missing energy really is a problem for PvE. A whole level of builds that rode the razor's edge of original SR returns just don't work with the timer in place.

Str0b0 · Nov 19, 2007, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Blood spike is a poor reason to not remove the SR timer. Even with it on Bloodspike provides the same benefits in PvP. We aren't talking about mass deaths in PVP ever, there aren't enough players involved. Even with the Blood spike and the current timer they could still effectively target 3 at a time, which is enough to keep any team busy ressing and trying to prot. The energy gain would be the same just the spike timing would be adjusted to accomodate 3 kills every 15 seconds, and I might add could be adjusted with very little build adjustment overall. I'm surprised no one has done it yet. Let's face it no bloodspike ever generated kills so fast that the timer would bother it.

greenthumb · Nov 19, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Nonsense. Things die at that rate in normal "endgame" content - and it is under those conditions that a necromancer should be balanced. If you try to make a necromancer easy to play under the hardest elite content then you remove all energy management from them for the entire game and you end up with the one dimensional gameplay that plagued the Necro prior to the original nerf.

It should be obvious it's not a serious PvE game balance issue. Ensign seems to be highly regarded. I defer to his posts in the original big thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Quite the contrary. People like me used their necromancers as mules under the original SR because with unlimited energy wasn't interesting to play. The class is infinitely more fun now and as a result, my girl has finished 3 of the campaigns.

LOL. Er, if that was the issue you claim to have had, you could've simply had more fun earlier by using less optimal, weaker builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I am also fine with the 3 second timer, its bounded nature allows you to dial down SR and have it actually effect the amount of energy you gain.

It was a 5-second timer, and ANet acknowledged it as being "inelegant".

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The original nerf was aimed at PvP and PvE - Spirits were mainly a PvP problem and had a very minimal effect on PvE, the two changes were never mutually exclusive.

I don't know what the relevance of your statement was in response to mine, but the point I was making previously was that a significant share of players suggested off the bat that the primary issue of SR be addressed by eliminating energy gain from spirits, and it was a long (and painful) road that was taken to eventually get to that result. After all that pain, it might be seem like ANet would be getting a little "egg on its face" because a significant share of players were screaming for that in the first place. Pride does not seem to get in the way of making game balance decisions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

A lot of this was addressed over and over again a few months ago.

I'm not a regular on these boards, but I followed the prior big thread fairly well, and I don't think there's been much discussion or criticism of the current design. Most of the discussion goes back to the 5-second timer design which is no longer in place.

cellardweller · Nov 19, 2007, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

It should be obvious it's not a serious PvE game balance issue. Ensign seems to be highly regarded. I defer to his posts in the original big thread.

Excuse me for not searching for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

LOL. Er, if that was the issue you claim to have had, you could've simply had more fun earlier by using less optimal, weaker builds.

I use sub-optimal builds for fun all the time, the problem was with an unbounded SR, the only way to re-introduce the dimension of energy management was to run with 0-3 SR at which point which you were no longer playing a necromancer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

It was a 5-second timer, and ANet acknowledged it as being "inelegant".

Appolgies, I was referering to the the 3hits in 15 second timer - typing at work ftl =). Pretty much everyone agrees both the original and the current ones are "ineligant". The question is whether the gameplay benefits of having it outway the ineligance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

I don't know what the relevance of your statement was in response to mine, but the point I was making previously was that a significant share of players suggested off the bat that the primary issue of SR be addressed by eliminating energy gain from spirits, and it was a long (and painful) road that was taken to eventually get to that result. After all that pain, it might be seem like ANet would be getting a little "egg on its face" because a significant share of players were screaming for that in the first place. Pride does not seem to get in the way of making game balance decisions.

I was just pointing out that eliminating spirit sr gains in the first place would only have addressed half the problem. The current 3 hits in 5 seconds or some other upper bound on SR gains is required.

Incidently unless I misreading your posts, I think we're actually on the same side here - The prefered option is to keep SR as is.

demonic A · Nov 19, 2007, 04:00 AM // 04:00

My friend quit gw cuz of sr nerf cuz he rly loved the necro , and he was happy that he quit when he knew they nerfed getting favor by winning halls, he said they were fighting for favor now they are just fighting…. the story sux now

Grammar · Nov 19, 2007, 04:27 AM // 04:27

If you think removing the timer would result in too much energy gained, then how about this for a solution:

Step 1: Remove timer
Step 2: Change how Soul Reaping Scales. Instead of 1 energy per every level of Soul Reaping, how about 1 energy per every 2 levels of Soul Reaping?

SR would trigger more often, but for only half as much energy each time.
Personally, I would favor this over the current timer system.

greenthumb · Nov 19, 2007, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I was just pointing out that eliminating spirit sr gains in the first place would only have addressed half the problem. The current 3 hits in 5 seconds or some other upper bound on SR gains is required.

Incidently unless I misreading your posts, I think we're actually on the same side here - The prefered option is to keep SR as is.

We're not quite on the same side. For PvE, having that upper bound isn't required for PvE balance because it's just not a serious game balance issue. As mentioned, for those situations where energy is just pouring in, incrementally, that "unbounded" energy just isn't that valuable. It's just icing on the cake.

Also, I'm not saying that the preferred option is the current design, but I am fine with it. I'm happy to have it rather than being worse off with some other possible variation of the 5-second timer.

The question this thread has to address...other than complaints of it being ugly and that ANet did get around to doing what was initially suggested by players so they should somehow be humbled, what's the compelling reason to actually eliminate the current design which appears to function without significant issue and revert to the prior design (without any up-end restriction)? Even if it could arguably be superior or simpler in design, is there a justifiable need to change it?

cellardweller · Nov 19, 2007, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

We're not quite on the same side. For PvE, having that upper bound isn't required for PvE balance because it's just not a serious game balance issue. As mentioned, for those situations where energy is just pouring in, incrementally, that "unbounded" energy just isn't that valuable. It's just icing on the cake.

Perhaps I have done a poor job of explaining how unbounded energy negatively impacts game play. I'll try again with an example.

An SS Necromancer running through non-elite pve areas is in a team facing a group of Jade Brotherhoods. One of the knights is at 25% health but is not currently hexed. The player is posed with question of should they cast SS on the knights to take them down faster, or just let the adjacent hexed warrior kill him but risk the ritualist at the back make a timely save, costing your team valuable seconds.

In the current 3 hit in 15 second world, there are a number of things that the player must consider: when was the last time the ritualist cast Soothing Memories; how long before SoLS (or any other EManangement Skills) recharges; will there be enough energy to follow up with spells to the back line; when was the last SR hit; is a 30/-2 weapon swap available; are there any minions near death; the list goes on. When all of these have been considered the player can then make a judgement call of "yes" or "no" to hexing the Brotherhood warrior.

In the pre-timer world, there was nothing to consider because there were no resourses to manage - any time the player clicked a skill the result was faster kills. The brother hood warrior always recieved SS as did everyone else because there was nothing to be gained by not casting. The answer was always yes and thats where the problem of unbounded energy lies.

greenthumb · Nov 19, 2007, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

In the current 3 hit in 15 second world, there are a number of things that the player must consider: when was the last time the ritualist cast Soothing Memories; how long before SoLS (or any other EManangement Skills) recharges; will there be enough energy to follow up with spells to the back line; when was the last SR hit; is a 30/-2 weapon swap available; are there any minions near death; the list goes on. When all of these have been considered the player can then make a judgement call of "yes" or "no" to hexing the Brotherhood warrior.

I imagine you play on a different level than I do. (That's meant as a compliment.) All those questions don't cross my mind, and I don't profess any greatness in ability. But you still haven't explained how it impacts the game balance situation.

The balance issue is very simple...either critters are dying very fast where the cap actually comes into play (the current design is fairly generous as 3 triggers in 15 seconds can provide for substantial energy return during that period and the party of critters is obviously getting cut down at a very rapid pace to exceed the cap on triggers) or critters are not dying fast enough for the cap to come into play (in which case the cap still doesn't impact the balance issue).

The only real significant impact of the cap, balance-wise, is that it encourages more points in SR to make the most of those limited triggers even when triggers may be abundant. Instead of getting away with running with 6 or 7 in SR, 9 or 10 starts making more sense. There's still not much of an overall game balance issue...if critters are dropping like flies, they're dropping like flies. The bigger balance question in that situation is what's causing them to drop like flies. Unless it's solely or primarily because of what the necromancer primary is doing and his energy that the others pale in comparison, there's not much of a balance issue.